Re: ...compare a healthy vegan diets like the McDougall diet ...
You are making an assumption here. There are plenty of unhealthy vegans on McDougall's diet. Look at his forum under Health Issues. Can you say that McDougall's diet is generally "healthy" for everyone? I don't think so.
BTW - did you notice how nasty is the attitude of most people on McDougall's forum towards Jimmy Moore? Especially in comparison with the courtious behavior of Moore towards Dr. McD shown in the interview. I just looked briefly and was put off by their negativity! These people should meditate more, practice spirituality and try relaxing their pentup aggression. JC, do you feel like that yourself?
You are right that we may be splitting a hair about a definition of the word "debate". I agree, if you take debate as being a civilized exchange of ideas and views, than it is creative and useful. However that is not often a type of "debate" we often hear in public, in the media. In this culture (both East and West) it is important for people in position of power to NEVER appear to have lost anything, including "losing" an argument. How often did you see a book author, a corporate manager or school principal admitting that she was wrong? This encourages an attitude of clinging to the old position and old beliefs.
I did not see any denigrating comments by Moore except a slight dosage of a teasing to entice Dr. M to come on air. Moore succeeded but I wished he didn't. I would rather not listen to somebody so emotional and bad tempered as Dr. M. since I didn't really learn anything! We are better off without people like this participating in our venues since all it does is increase a level of negative emotions and creates an atmosphere of uneasiness. JC, I think that we both are doing fabulously, learning and advancing our skills on our own, without gurus, experts, leaders, champions, stars and other distractions. Best regards,
Also, a debate is IMHO not superior or a substitute for a dialog. If there is no underlying desire to listen to the argument but instead a drive to "win a fight" by one party, then a "debate" is just a show of no value to me or you. It is like a show where one side is singing a song and the other side is boxing punches.
Re: "All that said I think Dr. McDougall is right and my personal diet consists of brown rice,potatoes beans and steamed vegetables.... but I don't miss a chance to try and prove his ideas are wrong.Thats why we need J. Moore,Taubes,Denise,and others....you never know who will turn out to be right in the long run.Einstein and Popper knew that may decades ago."
I agree, except the first statement. McDougall diet may be right for you at this moment and IMHO in the short term only, and I do hope you are supplementing with B12, D3, A and K2. McDougall is not right because he is mistaken saying that natural native human nutrition is or should be strictly plant-only. There are no strict vegan natives living or having lived anywhere in the world and even some who live predominantly on starchy vegetables and fruit do also consume some animal produce, fish or shelfish. If he disagrees let him show us one!
McDougall diet may be right for some people in some circumstances but I think he is generally WRONG on lecturing everybody to eat mostly starch. I met many diabetics on the webmd and other on-line forums who tried it, and for whom such high starch diets resulted in their blood sugar spiking consistently DANGEROUSLY high and some whose arteriosclerosis has been progressing no differently from the general Western population.
Re: " It would be great to see it debated with a neutral highy trained monitor as referee/moderator."
Ornish, McDougall and Campbell have been for years trying to lecture us but avoiding a dialog with us! What is the point of, for example Jimmy Moore having a polite conversation on air, if his opponent immediately gets emotional and then confrontational? McDougall showed that he does not seem to value a dialog!
They are grown adults who will bear the fruit of their actions and beliefs of what is and what is not "right". Besides, you need two to want to have a dialog not just one guy like Moore!
No I can't, because Campbell is quoting Popper's method but not applying it! Had he applied it he would not have published those multitudes of flawed casein papers only to be embarrassed by two twenty-something years olds shooting them through!
Had he applied scientific method of questioning his theories and examining the data from several point of views, he would never have written his condemnation of animal produce in his China Study book since the raw China study data published by Oxford was not supporting it!
There is just too many mistakes and too many attempts at what looks to me like damage control exercises instead of a dialog, for example with Masterjohn. I am writing DIALOG not debate because dialog is when two sides are talking while considering each other partners. Debates produced by Campbell, McDougall or Fuhrman resemble a duel fought to death. Not an inch back! You had a good example with McDougall vs Moore, or previously Campbell vs Minger, Campbell vs Masterjohn etc.
Dr. McDougall sounded really authoritarian, confrontational and aggressive, much more so than Moore! I wonder if that has something to do with Dr. McDougall experiencing some mood problem at that time, having a bad day perhaps and experiencing difficulty in controlling his temper? He seems to insist that there exists only one way and that is his way, where as those who disagree become branded as personal "enemies" and spoken very harshly of! He does not even allow posting any contrary research links on his forum let alone allow a real debate!
Isn't it quite typical in the way many not just some vegans react to contrary arguments? A vast majority of vegan forums seems full of highly strung easily offended people who tend to get extremely angry at a slightest of a disagreement!
I think it is a common pattern, not an exception!
Unlike McDougall who insisted on a complete conformance to his views, Moore simply stated if McDougall's vegetable diet does good to some people then by all means do it, while if someone else thrives instead on fat and low carb then it is fine too.
This is very refreshing, I am glad guys like Moore exist and talk!
May be may be not. The data Greger talks about, on hip replacement (osteoporosis) and degenerative brain diseases are not in vegan's favor, as it stands right now. Whether that would improve under more B12 supplementation remains a speculative hypothesis and is unproven.View Thread