And do not forget the amazing powers of antioxidants and phytochemicals.
We are seeing studies that vegetables lengthen telomers on chromosomes, up-regulate and down-regulate good and bad genes, and reduce gene methylation, a form of DNA damage.
These phytochemicals improve the health of every part of the body. They strengthen the immune system, they promote beneficial bacterial flora in the intestines, and reduce risk of heart disease, diabetes, hypertension, cancer etc, in hundreds of studies.
Heretic is silent on all this. He eats a cup of fat, a cup of meat and a cup of vegetables daily. A cup of vegetables is far too little. He seems to say that if you eat his diet, you will be so healthy you don't need significant phytochemicals. Yet he has no data at all.
Eating animal products promotes gut bacteria that creates TMAO, and promoted heart disease. Eating plants promote healthful gut bacteria.
It concerns me that someone is getting GERD. Google Barrett's disease. That's not great. It may take some time to track down what is causing the heartburn. I am curious what you find. For myself, I get heartburn when I break the diet. But we are all individuals, of course, so I will be most appreciative to learn how others react. I did notice that I could get heartburn from too much sourdough bread, of all things.
Re: "Another thing that convinces me is the large number of posters I communicate with either directly or by PMs that have had nothing but failure with the McDougall WOE."
What sort of failures are we talking about? Also, what is a WOE?
Do not forget. The Atkins diet often does give someone a low cholesterol number, but a low cholesterol number, in an Atkins diet situation, does not mean good artery health. The Masai clearly prove that, in spite of being very lean and athletic, Dr. Mann reversed his position, and said they have atherosclerosis like the elderly in the US. My brother-in-law lost weight on the Atkins diet, and had low cholesterol, and died in his sleep at 68 years old, of a heart attack. That is merely an anecdote for us, but for him it was the entire story.
Dr. Fleming published a comparison on blood flow to the heart, between a Pritikin like diet, and some of the same group who adopted the Atkins diet to lose weight. Blood flow to the heart was measured by myocardial perfusion imaging (MPI), before and after the study. After a year, the Pritikin like group improved blood flow to the heart, and the Atkins group significantly worsened.(1)
Do not forget the excellent results published by Pritikin and Esselstyn. Where is any data from high fat/protein people, to document improved health (not low cholesterol numbers)? Atkins and Pritikin both started in the 1970's. There has been plenty of time for data to originate. But Dr Atkins and Jimmy Moore themselves, failed to be successful even to keep weight off, or to be healthy.
Re: ".However Heretics arguments are more convincing to me especially when combined with my own personal experience."
Dr. Atkins had heart disease (oh, a virus). He was obese and probably died of a stroke. His family fought in court to keep his autopsy and poor health secret, and then sold the Atkins name as a health diet, probably for hundreds of millions of dollars.
On the other hand, the doctors I follow, plant based diet, are successful.
Check www.pritikin.com click on Your Health - Health Benefits or Scientifically Proven Results
I agree entirely about an angiogram. If one is having a heart attack or stroke, have an angiogram, and possibly a surgeon can reverse the heart attack or stroke. Otherwise, there is no value in it.
I like the IMT. It is cheap, and safe, just like a baby ultrasound. You get a picture of any significant blockage in the carotid arteries, and the average thickness of the left and right carotid intra media thickness reading. That reading can be tracked every couple of years, to see progress. It costs roughly $200. BE SURE TO VERIFY THE PRICE FIRST.
I seek out what McDougall, Fuhrman and others say, concerning what they recommend, and why. I would not have figured this program out, on my own. Based on the rationale and data provided, Fuhrman comes out on top, on my opinion. However, I've seen posts on both sites, that some people are more successful on the one program than the other. I realize that you prefer not to follow any program.
By the way, I recommend you read Eating and Fasting for Health, by Fuhrman. Reading that book gave me a crick in my jaw, from my mouth hanging open in amazement, for the whole time I read it.
Why does Fuhrman advocate nuts & seeds? He feels that he has seen too many patients on low fat vegan diets, with essential tremor. These patients are usually deficient in omega-3 fats (DHA, EPA). Taking DHA supplements does not reverse the tremors. It is permanent. (We realize that this does not prove that the low fat vegan diets cause deficient omega-3, or tremors. )
Fuhrman just completed a study of DHA levels in low fat vegans, and expects to publish the results soon. He is concerned that they are frequently deficient in omega-3 essential fats.
Are you interested in an Atkins style diet, or Paleo?
Dr. Atkins died early, obese, and suffered from heart disease, and may have died of a stroke. We don't know exactly what he died of, because his family fought in court to keep his health information a secret, and then sold the Atkins name for many millions of dollars, to the diet industry.
Jimmy Moore published a diet book about losing weight on an Atkins style diet. Then he regained all the weight. The Atkins diet has more problem with regaining weight, than other diets. We know this from the www.nwcr.ws Weight Control Registry.
The hearts and aortae of 50 Masai men were collected at autopsy. These pastoral people are exceptionally active and fit and they consume diets of milk and meat. The intake of animal fat exceeds that of American men. Measurements of the aorta showed extensive atherosclerosis with lipid infiltration and fibrous changes but very few complicated lesions(1). The coronary arteries showed intimal thickening by atherosclerosis which equaled that of old U.S. men(2). The Masai vessels enlarge with age to more than compensate for this disease(3). It is speculated that the Masai are protected from their atherosclerosis by physical fitness which causes their coronary vessels to be capacious(4).
(1) Extensive atherosclerosis with lipid (fat) infiltration and fibrous changes - YuK !! This is a sick, diseased artery wall. "but very few complicated lesions" = few plaques causing blockages.
(2) which equaled that of old U.S. men. Old US men have severe atherosclerosis. This is a dramatic reversal of Dr. Mann's earlier statements and belief, that the Masai had healthy arteries. Clearly, he is making the shocking statement that the Masai have more atherosclerosis than the average american, of the same age.
(3) the arteries enlarge to compensate for this DISEASE. Note the word disease.
(4) Dr. Mann speculates that since the Masai are very lean, exercise a great deal, walk 20 miles a day tending their herds, and are very fit, the arteries enlarge to compensate for the thickening artery wall.
My aside: For any person who wants to emulate the Masai, based on posts by folks like Heretic, if you don't walk 20 miles a day, if you are not thin as a rail, if you EVER eat white flour and any SAD foods, you will have diseased arteries, AND complicated lesions (blockages) and heart attacks.
This was Dr. Mann's last publication on the subject, after a study he designed to settle the question once and for all, with 50 autopsies.
I followed the Pritikin diet for 30 years, and I was lactose intolerant, so I believe I was identical to McD for the 30 years. I was strict for the last 2 years, after seeing that my less strict adherence to the program, was not preventing my cholesterol from going too high. An IMT test showed that I had beginning atherosclerosis getting worse, during the last 2 years strict on the Pritikin diet.
I changed to the Fuhrman Eat To Live diet and got better results, reversing some "lipid inclusions" (fat pockets) in the artery wall.
Oh, you are comparing to the high fat diet, perhaps as Heretic has advocated. Let me search for some earlier posts on this board.
You mentioned earlier that you lost 30 pounds, since your MI. Do you mind sharing whether that was due to a more strict or diligent diet, or reduced appetite during recovery from the heart attack, or why? Prior to the MI, did you eat 1 oz nuts & seeds daily, or more, or less? I am only trying to understand, so my suggestions, if desired, might be relevant.
Do you mind sharing how much you can pinch by your belly, now and before the MI?
Gee, if you prefer not to share these things, you may simply reply "The weather is very nice," and I will understand.
Can anyone find a study that nuts & seeds and avocados are harmful?
I think we might find studies that vegetable oil is harmful. Here is an old post.
Hi folks, Thanks, jc, for the post.
An excellent resource: Dr. Esselstyn's book "Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease". I'll set you back $10 plus postage, from Amazon.com.
Chapter 10 is on heart healthy oils, and the data that they aren't. Here's a sampling:
He covers the Mediterranean Diet, studied by the Lyon Diet Heart Study, with heart patients(1). The Mediterranean diet folks had 50 to 70% fewer cardiac events than the standard medical care group. Very impressive. But, after the 4 year study, 25% of the Mediterrannean diet group had either died or had a new cardiovascular event. Esselstyn says, "I feel these are wretched results for a nonmalignant disease."
Compare those results with Esselstyn's results with the worst heart patients, of 20 years with no events (one, with extensive heart damage before the study, died after 8 years). No comparison what-so-ever.
He covers Dr. Rudel's work with Green Monkeys, chosen because they are most similar to humans in terms of atherosclerosis. He compared monkeys fed monounsaturated fat to saturated fat. The monounsaturated fat lowered LDL, and raised HDL, just like in humans. But at the end of 5 years, autopsy showed the two groups of monkeys had the same amount of atherosclerosis (2). Same results with rodents.
Dr. Vogel showed that olive oil reduces dilation in the brachial artery tourniquet test. That is, it reduces the flexibility of the endothelial cells.
Reverend William Valentine lost 50 pounds after bypass surgery in 1990, and carefully followed a plant based diet of whole grains, legumes, vegetables and fruit, and stopped his angina. Then, 14 years later, he started getting angina again, even at rest. He called Dr. Esselstyn for advice. Dr. Esselstyn was stumped as to how to improve his Valentine's diet. Dr. Esselstyn asked him to once more carefully go over absolutely everything he was eating, leaving out nothing. Reverend Valentine was adding heart healthy olive oil to his salads each lunch and dinner. "Eureka!" Dr. Esselstyn told him to eliminate the olive oil. After 7 weeks, the angina went away.
So we have a study which shows that olive has MUFA which might do something which might affect something which might improve heart health, IF our theories are accurate. On the other hand, we have studies and experience that heart patients worsen or die eating olive oil. It's a close call which to go with.
Best regards, EngineerGuy
(1) Michel de Lorgeril, Circulation, February 16, 1999: "Mediterranean Diet, Traidional Risk Factors, and the Rate of Cardiovascular Complications after Myocardial Infarction: Final Report to the Lyon Diet Heart Study."
(2) Lawrence Rudel, Arteriosclerosis, Thrombosis, and Vascular Biology, December 1995: "Compared with Dietary Monounsaturated and Saturated Fat, Polyunsaturated Fat Protects African Green Monkeys from Coronary Artery Arteriosclerosis."View Thread
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