??? Again...you are totally misreading my posts...
I am speaking about actual addicts...not pain patients...
Both CTBeth and I have said numerous times now that I don't understand why you are ignoring this..
There are some pain patients who are having trouble finding a good Dr. to help them....
That has NOTHING to do with this petition to the DEA which once again in two more posts you can't come up with actual proof of what you are accusing them of. You keep changing your story every single post.
Now you are lumping it into states...Well..which ones...which laws or regulations specifically are you against.....
I am all for a healthy and logical discussion but I also presented facts to you but I have yet to see facts from you on what you are saying is the fault of the DEA.
Just because there are some people who are truly in pain and are having trouble finding a Dr. to treat them, does not mean that it's all because of the state or DEA.
And you are absolutely wrong to say that "most pain patients" do not get addicted.
Addiction boards are filled with those who started out having pain but got addicted to the medications..
Addiction is something that I believe (as well as many Physicians) is an actual chemical imbalance in the brain. This is something that is not about "will power"....My mom has struggled her entire life with cigarettes, which she quit, alcohol, which she quit, and now it is overeating. She is a very strong person but has trouble with addictive behavior.
Anyone can get addicted to pain meds. This still has nothing to do with recognizing the difference, which I have pointed out many times, between an actual epidemic of prescription drug abuse and those that have real health/pain issues that are taking their meds as prescribed and have no problem with addiction.
There is absolutely a difference between addiction and dependence and that is not the issue at all. Most of all of us are dependent on our meds if we have been on them a long time, just like other meds like heart or thyroid medication.
To not have your eyes open to the true issues of prescription abuse that has been on the rise the last 10 years is only seeing one side of the coin. But you seem to only want to focus on just the pain patient side.
I recognize there are those who suffer from addiction and the laws that are in place are actually helping Drs. focus more on those who are not abusing medications as we do not fail urine tests, our pill counts are fine, and we don't Dr. shop or use the ER to get meds.
As I said, this is also helping Drs. discover more quickly who may be struggling and starting down the wrong path if they are having a patient who is running out early or failed a test and hopefully get them help before it's too late.
If anything, I wish there were more monies spent on addiction and helping those, especially who do not have insurance or the money to seek treatment.
This entire thread, started by you, was a petition against the DEA in which you are blaming them for everything from pill counts, urine tests and having to see the Dr. every month. We have shown that this is not due to the DEA.
There are many non PM Drs. out there that are deciding not to treat chronic pain patients as they don't want to go to the trouble to do the extra certification/training. So yes, it will take time for those who are being treated by them to seek out a new Dr. But this happens a lot if a Dr. leaves a practice, or drops an insurance plan.
I can't say it any clearer that IF you, or anyone, has a specific issue with a specific part of a law/regulation that is out there then by all means, petition away. But be clear, give out facts, and then give people links so they can see for themselves.View Thread
***I am replying and my comments are in general and not specifically to Lori even though I happened to click on her name to reply***
I actually read through the actual bill and don't see anything that is really unusual that most states aren't doing as well.
Please keep in mind that it is a regular person on a forum who is making the initial comments about the bill on the medscape website for those who read it. I don't see any actual statistics from the police dept. stating that the crime rate has gone up specifically due to this bill and if it has, showing what those crimes are. Of course there are a lot of addicts that are having more trouble getting their meds from Drs. so they do turn to heroin or crime...but that doesn't affect us as I truly don't see where a person like myself would ever do such a thing no matter what type of pain I am in...
I've been in excruciating pain before and without a Dr. or insurance. It stinks....but I pressed on...
I take no issue if someone who lives in Kentucky wants to write their government and petition against the specific politicians who wrote up and passed this bill if they disagree with it.
But as CTBeth mentioned, it's very important to not just rail against the whole thing as there are many logical pieces to this bill of having trained Physicians only who prescribe controlled substances, using the KASPER system for tracking everything and registering patients.
This is even information that was sent from the cabinet in KY to all Physicians about HB1
HB 1 and the Board Regulations prohibit physicians from prescribing controlled substances.
There is nothing in HB 1 or the Board's regulations that prohibits physicians from prescribing controlled substances.
So if you are going to object to something, make sure you have read the entire bill/law/regulation whether Federal or state and then be specific to what you are against.
"Peskypain is not aware of those of us out here with documented years of surgery, injections and legally prescribed medications in reasonable doses."
I don't know where people are getting these wild assumptions?
Just because I don't happen to disagree with a specific petition that I still haven't gotten any proof on what is being said about the DEA...does not mean I don't realize that there are Drs. out there that do much more than the DEA or the state asks of them which to me is an issue to take up with that particular Dr.
I also wrote that I am very aware (I have been posting on this for a few years now in other chronic pain"communities" ) that things are changing with requiring non PM Drs. to either take more certifications and get more training if they want to treat any patient for "chronic" pain with controlled substances. This is having many of them send their patients elsewhere.
I just don't do blanket statements or petitions just because people are "angry" or "upset"....
If the OP or anyone else will show us exactly where the DEA is doing something they claim we would all like to read it. So far I have only seen people say their Dr. is doing x, y, or z.
I'll say it again...the DEA does not require a patient to be seen monthly. The DEA is not requiring monthly or even 90 day urine test. The DEA does not have a cap on how much codeine a Dr. can prescribe.
These are either state laws or more likely just a choice by your Dr.
Yes, FL and KY has more strict laws/regulations than some other states but still waiting for proof from someone in these states to show me where they are stopping people from getting certain prescriptions for pain meds.
People often mistake when a Dr. or even a Pharmacy takes issue with a chronic pain patient being on larger amounts of short acting medication long term. As I wrote earlier, most PM Drs. will move their patient to a long acting medication so they only need one or two...three max a day (every 8 or 12 hours). Short acting meds for breakthrough are meant to be only used once in awhile. So yes, they are trying to cut back on these meds all across the U.S. There shouldn't be a need for someone to need more than 3-4 max a day of short acting meds unless it's an acute situation. Otherwise a Dr. would move up in strength on the long acting med.
So when this is done..people are thinking it's the "DEA" that is having their Dr. not feel comfortable or wanting to prescribe a lot of short acting meds month after month.
I had to switch from OxyContin to MSContin years ago when the generic patent ran out and the new formula patent started. I didn't blame this switch on my Dr., the state, or the DEA...I don't have any health insurance and it's too expensive. Even if I had insurance, I don't disagree with requesting someone try less expensive meds first.
And in regard to Pharmacies, all over the country they have stopped keeping large shipments of controlled substances in their Pharmacy and/or warehouse to prevent theft/robberies. Most of them only get shipments in once a week. And yes, in FL Oxycodone in short acting is harder to find but not impossible. But if somoene has chronic pain, then there are many other meds to choose from to take. It's not about demanding a certain type/brand.
Again....I definitely disagree with any poster/member who is trying to play the "my pain is greater than yours or I know more about chronic pain than you do" as quoted above in bold. It has nothing to do with empathy and hoping someone finds a good, reputable PM Dr. who can help them with their pain but this doesn't mean it's all about opiates and this is the only form of pain relief and that "everyone" deserves those types of med no matter what.
This whole thread is about the DEA and claims I haven't seen yet so I hope we will get the details soon.View Thread
Not sure how long you have been seeing them but having a urine test every 90 days is not a DEA requirement at all.. I don't even think there is a state out there that has that as their law. (If you know otherwise in your state please show us a link)
So, that sounds like a personal decision by your Dr.
I would be objecting and be upset with your Dr. for the out of pocket expense if your Dr. is making you do these of his own accord so often. You can easily find this out by looking at your state laws but I know for a fact it isn't the DEA. You can also ask him directly if it's the state making him or his choice. (I am betting the latter)
My Dr. only uses the type of lab that does the gas chromatography mass spectrometry as this is 99.9% accurate. I would not trust just regular dip stick tests. The test I mentioned is close to $1000 and I am blessed in that because I do not have any health insurance my PM writes off the entire amount for me the once a year as it is a state requirement (once a year) so he didn't want it to negatively affect his patients who couldn't pay.
This is why I say everything is not the state or DEA as there are great Drs. out there that will do what is needed legally but not anything more when they have a trusted relationship with the patient.View Thread
"of this is DEA no matter what others here say, they have changed the rules, you have and are experiencing the results of that now sadly, and have made doctors afraid to write and patients often afraid to ask for the amounts they need." (Quoted from LeeJCaroll)
We are just asking that you show us exactly what you are referencing that has changed that is the DEA's fault and not your individual state. You should be able to provide us with a link to the DEA site as I did to show me what you are referencing.
If you looked at the link I gave you, it specifically says that it does NOT say that a patient has to go every month if they are prescribe opiates. I do not know of ANY DEA law/regulation that states the amount of codeine that you are given has to go from 120 to 90 pills.
So, please show us where you are getting your information.
"And absolutely you dont bother with pain support communities or the humiliation, discomfort, inconvenience, whatever word(s) you choose to sign an opiod contract or have to agree to randonm drug testing, something only those in methadone and recovery/jail have to do," (Quoted from LeeJCaroll) This particular comment above I have no clue what you are meaning by this? Again, you know nothing about my life, who I associate with, and what communities I belong to. I speak for myself and many others whom I do know that have chronic pain and no one is humiliated or horribly upset by having to do a random urine test or pill count or signing a pain mgmt. contract. None of us feel compared to someone in "jail" or "methadone recovery"???? I don't know where you are getting this stuff! It's just part of the process and that I am cognizant to realize how prescription abuse/death has become an epidemic to where there needs to be certain parameters set to ensure that people are taking their meds as prescribed. I only have to get a test once a year and it's very simple for me to pee in a cup and to bring in my bottles. If this helps them weed out those who are taking advantage of the system, as well as possibly catch someone who is starting down the wrong path and a Dr. can help them before it's too late, then this is fine for me. I don't worry one bit about my test or pill count so it's no big deal. Again, I can speak for many of those that I have come to know over the last 6 years of being in chronic pain management. Everyone who has been doing this long term realizes that opiates are a privlege when it comes to PM...as are other controlled substances....that it is not something most of started out with, it took years to get to where we are and what dosages/meds we are on and we take them very seriously. I am a partner in my health care with my Dr. and Pharmacist. There is nothing demeaning about my care at all. So, you keep being upset about the things I am saying but I have given you proof of what the DEA law is about how often they require patients be seen and it's only 3 months. I will guarantee that if you, or someone you actually know is being required to come every month, it is either a state law, or the preference of that particular Dr. for all patients or just them. Just like with a law that I hope comes to every single state about no texting and driving. I don't feel "humiliated" or not trusted...I am perfectly fine with never doing this while driving and having it an actual law to help prevent senseless accidents and death because there are people who just don't take it seriously enough which then causes harm to themselves and others. That's the best analogy I can make, I'm willing to "sacrifice" on my end for the greater good for many:)
What is the reason you run out of medications each month? Usually a prescription is written to last for 30 days.
It sounds like you are on a medication like Norco/Vicodin or Tramadol...These are the only ones that allow for actual refills.
How many are you given each month and what does the prescription read for instructions (like take x amount every x hours)
A Pharmacist is a part of your health care team and it is a red flag to be running out of meds each month. It's one thing to fill your meds 1-2 days in advance, but there is absolutely no reason to need a medication that is supposed to be for 30 days, 10 days early.
The Pharmacist does have the right to not fill your prescription as well as even alert the state and/or DEA in that your Dr. is allowing this to happen each month.
I would caution you in that with regulations getting more strict that this may all come crashing down in the future and your Dr. may get into trouble for letting you do this month after month.
There are many other ways to help lessen one's pain from exercise, PT, injections, acupuncture, massage, ice, heat, TENS unit, biofeedback, just to name some...
IF you have take your medication on schedule, and then tried literally every other thing to try and get the pain down, then you need to contact the Dr. to ask them what to do. This should be done instead of taking more pills than prescribed.
By doing this each month, which means that you are getting a higher dosage of meds certain days, and then nothing for some days, this is only going to make your pain levels that much higher and harder to treat.
I'm also surprised that your insurance company allows for such early refills as well. Just an FYI but most states now have a Prescription Monitoring System so that any Dr. or Pharmacist can see when/where you are filling your medication, how early each month, and whether you pay cash/use insurance. My point in stating this is that if you try to go someplace else they will be able to see this.
I'm not trying to scold, just trying to say that you need to work with your Dr. on getting a better plan in place to handle your pain issues. As well as making sure you have a realistic view of what chronic pain is..this means that we will always have pain and a level 5 or so is acceptable after taking meds. By using other modalities, this can help lower your pain level a bit as well.
I wrote all of this to caution you in that it may be where the Dr. decides this isn't working and cuts you off altogether and then it will be on your medical records that you aren't taking the meds responsibly which could make it where another Dr. does not prescribe anything for ppain that is controlled.
That is the long answer...LOL...Again, we all know what it's like to be in pain...I hope you can figure this out with your Dr. soon.View Thread
It looks like you are replying to two different people and since you included my screen name I will address what you are saying..
I'm not sure where you can make a determination about someone's medical or pain issues from their chosen screen name????
Your pain is no more "severe" than mine or anyone's on here so please do not confuse the conversations as I responded to the specific things you mentioned that the "DEA" is doing and this is simply not true.
Did you read the link I gave you? That is straight from the .gov website. There is not any law by the DEA that states that patients must see their Drs. every month period.
And I'm not sure what you are saying about how I take my medications? Yes, I take them as prescribed and never take more. This is pretty simple to do and has absolutely nothing to do with what my pain levels are. It has to do with following a Drs. orders and not running out of my meds and not breaking that trust with my Dr. who expects me to not just decide for myself how many pills I should take.
I am given a certain amount each month to where the max of my breakthrough meds is 8 a day. Since I am also on a long acting med...I only use my BT med when needed so I have great flexibility. I would never think of taking more than the 8.
Making it seem like it is "ok" or normal for people to just do what they want and take more than prescribed and run out of meds is just not the case. IF someone is having greater pain, there are many other things to do to help that pain level come down than just taking a pain pill. If that person has done all they can and are still in terrible pain, then they should call their Dr. or the Dr. on call if after hours and ask what to do.
Whether someone has an actual written pain contract or not with their Dr. there is an "implied" one that we can follow instructions and realize that our Drs. are being monitored by the state and the DEA and what we do can affect them. If someone runs out early and then is begging for the DR. to give them another prescription before the 30 days, that Dr. would have to then try to explain this on your medical records.
It has nothing to do with an "ax" to grind with anyone...It's just about how people would never think twice about just taking more thyroid or heart medication but for some reason people think that they are more knowledgeabel than their Dr. and can just change their prescription and take more pain meds. This is why it takes awhile for Drs. to trust new patients as too many people think this is ok.
You are the one who seems to be very upest with myself, the DEA, Drs. etc.
Believe me, I've been without a PM Dr. after my 2nd fusion surgery and in excruciating pain and didn't have any medication to take except Advil and Tylenol. I just pressed forward and in a few months I was able to find a new Dr. and go from there.
I have had dozens of surgeries as well as been in PM for many years now so please do not play the "my situation is worse than your situation" game. It has nothing to do with what you are claiming the DEA is doing.
I understand that you have had specific problems with getting pain meds because of your previous PM Dr. who got shut down. This tells me (as I already responded on another thread) that they were not doing things by the book. Drs. do not just get shut down when they are following all the rules.
I'm sorry that you had to go through that but to be upset with any new Drs. who feel that you should have other treatments and use other modalities in addition to just opiates doesn't make sense to me.
I certainly hope that you can get the care you need with the new PM Dr. you are seeing.
I just believe as I said in my other post that getting prescribed opiates is not a "right" but a privilege and that it is up to us to follow any prescription that we take, controlled or not, or communicate with the Dr. and then go from there. I personally would never be under the care of a Dr. to where I thought I knew more than they did!View Thread
I happen to think that too many new people to PM think that getting opiates is a "right" when it comes to pain management. That no matter what the pain, they feel that they should start on an opiate. Just 20 years ago (less actually) Percocet 5mg was the most that was given out after a major surgery. For other things you were given a Tylenol 3 or just told to grin and bear it. I had broken bones, surgeries, tendon tears, etc...and in only a few cases did I take a day or two of Percocet.
People have the right to be listened to and helped with their pain, yes, but being put on strong pain meds is something that for many of us didn't happen until years down the road into our chronic pain journey. There are many other medications and ways to treat pain. Opiates have their place, but with them comes great responsibility not just from the Dr. but the patient. So, I say this in my many posts on this particular subject but I am an Independent. I do NOT believe Gov. should be involved in many things but there are some good laws and regulations in the U.S. and I take each and every one of them individually when needed and decide whether I agree or disagree. People start to get up in arms about things without clearly looking at all the details. That is why it is crucial to see whether something is an actual DEA regulation or a state law/regulation, or just a personal choice by the Dr. And even then, everything that I have listed I just don't see as harming those who truly need care. All these laws have not stopped my own care or changed it in any way as well as my PM. He has only been able to care for more patients with others being discouraged more that weren't on the up and up. Just my own thoughts/opinions View Thread
The DEA regulation for Schedule 2 medications and seeing a patient every 3 months has been in effect since 2006.
Codeine 4 is not a Schedule 2 medication. But coming in every 6 months is not unreasonable whatsoever if someone is taking any type of medication. My mom is on BP, Cholesterol, and heart meds and has to see her Dr. every 6 months to monitor not just her health but make any adjustments with medications. So I do not see the big deal in this and would actually be wary of any Dr. who only saw their patient that they are prescribing medication to only once a year.
You can read the information here in regards to Schedule 2 meds and the DEAs rules about appts.
I have been seeing my PM for every 3 months since 2007 so it is not coming from the DEA.
Each state has their own laws and regulations they can make on top of anything the DEA requires. As well as individual Drs. can choose to see a patient more than 3 months if they want.
You mention in your other post that "no other medical condition assumes felonious behavior"....It has nothing to do with one's condition but the medications that one is prescribed.
As pain patients, we must all recognize that prescription abuse has truly become an epidemic. I, for one, do not mind the yearly urine test or pill counts as it is a small price to pay to help my Dr. focus more on those who truly need him and weed out those who's aim is to abuse the meds/system.
As I mentioned, it's the individual states that make many of the regulations for the urine testing or pill counts so it's important to know your own state's laws.
It's also the individual states that have different regulations on the caps of certain meds per month being prescribed. This is not a Federal law. And again, I take each regulation and look at it separately to see whether I agree or not. I happen to agree that short acting meds are not meant to be prescribed long term as someone's "primary" medication. If someone is a true "chronic" pain patient then most all PMs move that patient to a long acting medication to prevent the ups/downs in pain levels and then prescribe a short acting for a "breakthrough" med. That is only meant to be taken sparingly when there are bad days...not every single day and the max every day.
There are not regulations saying that a short acting med "cannot" be prescribed...it's just some states limit the amount per 30 days (for long term usage) and when it's the only med.
As of now there are 42 states that participate in the Prescription Monitoring Program (won't be long for all 50). This is also something I completely approve of as it tracks us by name so that any Dr. (regular or ER/Urgent Care or Pharmacist ) can pull up a history of all medications that have been filled anywhere in the state. This is helping to prevent those who "Dr. shop" or try to use different pharamcies and/or pay cash in one place, use insurance in the other to obtain multiple prescriptions of controlled substances.
I actually hope this will become nationwide one day.
I also have no issue with Vicodin becoming a Schedule 2. It is just as "abused" as any other type of opiate.
The last thing that is coming down the pike that I think is good is that they are requiring more training and certification to any non PM Dr. who wants to treat chronic pain patients (More than 3 months. This moves from acute to chronic). This is very logical to me as PM is an actual specialty. My PM Dr. is both an Anesthesiologist as well as Board Certified in Pain Management. Any Dr. who is treating someone with powerful medications should have continuing education on this to know what they are doing.