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Reply: Pavo??

Hi butterfly_kisses726, I'm not a vet and don't have personal experience with Parvo....

Posted by srstephanie

3 Replies | Reply | Watch This DiscussionReport This| Share this:Pavo?? Hi butterfly_kisses726, I'm not a vet and don't have personal experience with Parvo....

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Reply: Question about vaccinations

Hi An_251629, Did you see my (lengthy) reply when you posted this question a week or...

Posted by srstephanie

2 Replies | Reply | Watch This DiscussionReport This| Share this:Question about vaccinations Hi An_251629, Did you see my (lengthy) reply when you posted this question a week or...

Reply: Dog vacinations

Hi An_251629, If you are talking about the core vaccines: Distemper, Adenovirus,...

Posted by srstephanie

Hi An_251629,

If you are talking about the core vaccines: Distemper, Adenovirus, Parvovirus ... then, no, you do not need to revaccinate prior to the three year period. All of those vaccines are Modified Live Virus vaccines (MLV) and a single dose to an adult dog, even if never vaccinated before, will produce protective immunity (i.e. for most dogs, there are always a few dogs that are "non-responders" and there is never a 100% guarantee of protection with any vaccine).

With Rabies, future boosters are determined by what the vaccine is licensed for ... and state/local legal requirements. Most states and municipalities accept what the rabies vaccine is labeled for. So, if using a "1-year" vaccine, then you would need to booster in a year. If using a 3-year rabies vaccine, then you don't need to booster before three years.

One question may be what the dog's previous vaccination history was and how old at the last vaccine (4 years ago). Was the dog an adult four years ago ... or was that just part of the puppy series? It is generally recommended that after the puppy series (for which the last vaccination should be given at 14-16 weeks of age), all the core vaccines should be boostered "no later than" 1 year after the last puppy series ... THEN you can go to a three-year booster protocol. The experts like to have that first booster once the dog becomes an adult (with a fully mature immune system) to get a good response, and then go to the longer booster intervals.

If your dog didn't have that first booster, no later than 1 year after the last puppy series ... and it has been four years since the initial puppy series ... then some vets might want to give a two dose series now. Immunologically, it isn't necessary, but some (many) vets may feel more confident with a two dose series (given at least 2 weeks apart and before 6 weeks). For adult dogs that have never been vaccinated before ... most vets will give a two dose series, even though immunologically, one dose of the core vaccines is all that is needed since they are all MLV vaccines.

But if the dog has been previously vaccinated, particularly if that last vaccination was as an adult ... then, no matter how many years go by before the next booster, only a single vaccination is needed and you can wait at least three years for another booster.

In reality, once vaccinated as an adult with the core vaccines, immunologists feel that most dogs are immune for life, particularly for parvovirus. Many vaccine manufacturers have "duration of immunity" studies that show protection for "at least" 5-7 years. But vets and the experts still tend to recommend boosters every 3 years just to protect the occasional dog that may not have responded well to a previous vaccination.

The one exception is always Rabies ... for which you must follow local legal requirements ... most of which follow whatever the rabies vaccine is "labeled" for ... either 1-year or 3-years.

My info comes from the 2011 AAHA Canine Vaccination Guidelines (https://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/CanineVaccineGuidelines.pdf

I also highly recommend an article on Overdue Vaccinations by Dr Richard Ford (a co-author of the AAHA Guidelines) in the Nov/Dec issue of Today's Veterinary Practice. Much of my above info came from it. I admit my bias, he is a good friend of mine and my mentor, but he is also considered a vaccine guru by his peers and highly respected as one of the top experts on vaccination protocols. Here is a link to his article on overdue vaccinations (one of an on-going series on vaccination questions)
http://www.todaysveterinarypractice.com/article.asp?articleid=T1211F03#article

Hope that helps.

Stephanie in Montreal (soon to be Raleigh, NC)View Thread

Posted bysrstephanie

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Reply: Newly declawed cat not herself.

Hi Epcotgirl, The term "declaw" is misleading. As Rohvannyn pointed out, it is not the...

Posted by srstephanie

3 Replies | Reply | Watch This DiscussionReport This| Share this:Newly declawed cat not herself. Hi Epcotgirl, The term "declaw" is misleading. As Rohvannyn pointed out, it is not the...

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Reply: My 8 year old cat died of bladder cancer

Hi ksmith06, My condolences on the loss of your kitty. Many of us have gone through it...

Posted by srstephanie

Hi ksmith06,

My condolences on the loss of your kitty. Many of us have gone through it and know the pain and grief.

The cancer caused by vaccinations (or other injections) is usually a fibrosarcoma and is seen at the site of the vaccination. So, it is unlikely that bladder cancer is a result of a vaccination, unless the vaccination was given near the bladder, which I doubt happened.

A little on the Vaccine Associated Sarcomas (VAS) which are also called Feline Injection Site Sarcomas (FISS).

The problem is not the vaccine itself but rather chronic inflammation that is caused by the vaccination. Some cats have a genetic predisposition which causes the immune system to react to the inflammation in a way that results in a mutation to the P53 gene. The P53 gene is a "tumor suppressor" gene. When it mutates, it no longer suppresses cell reproduction and cancer develops. So, two things are needed for a VAS:

1) Inflammation (particularly long term chronic inflammation)
2) genetic predisposition (which results in a mutation of the P53 gene that allows tumor growth)

A fibrosarcoma (cancer) may occur as a result of any inflammation, not just that caused by vaccinations. Thus, the experts are now starting to prefer to use the term Feline Injection Site Sarcoma (FISS). It has been seen after injections of long acting steroids, antibiotics, insulin and even just subcutaneous fluids. Some cats are so sensitive that any inflammation can cause it ... even things other than injection. It has been seen as a result of inflammation caused by eye trauma, or sutures, or even when a vet accidentally left a piece of gauze in at a surgery.

But vaccines, particularly the Rabies and Feline Leukemia vaccines are most implicated because most of them are Killed Virus (KV, also called "inactivated") vaccines. That means that the vaccine is made by taking either rabies or FeLV and killing the virus and injecting it. But the immune system is smart enough to know that the virus is dead and not a threat, so it doesn't respond. So, they have to add a chemical to the vaccine called an adjuvant, often (but not always) aluminum. The whole purpose of the adjuvant is to create inflammation at the vaccination site and hold the vaccine there. The inflammation is like holding a sign up to the immune system and telling it to come here and respond. There have been studies to show that the inflammation caused by KV vaccines lasts for months and likely years. A fibrosarcoma has developed as long as 9 to 11 years after the last vaccination. But the cancer occurs under the skin at the vaccination site.

It is true that it is a rare cancer ... estimated at between 1 in 1,000 and 1 in 10,000 vaccinations. But that still translates into thousands of cats each year in the US. We don't know what cats have the genetic predisposition, so it is wise to avoid using adjuvanted KV vaccines.

There is one alternative type of vaccine for both rabies and FeLV vaccines that are not adjuvanted. They are the recombinant vaccines that are made by a company called Merial in their Purevax line. They are made by taking just a small piece of DNA from rabies or FeLV and inserting it in a carrier virus, i.e. the canarypox, which is a bird virus that is not able to replicate in mammals. They are very good vaccines and produce very little inflammation that is gone within a couple days. The only draw back is the rRabies is licensed as a 1-yr vaccine and has to be boostered annually.

For the other "core" vaccines (Panleukopenia, Herpes, Calici) it is recommended that a Modified Live Virus vaccine be used. They give better protection and do not have any adjuvant ... and very little inflammation.

All that said, I don't think a vaccination would cause bladder cancer. The cancer caused by vaccines (and other inflammation) is usually a lump under the skin at the site of the vaccination.

Hope that helps.
Stephanie in MontrealView Thread

Posted bysrstephanie

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Reply: heart murmur in older cats

Hi gingert, How old are your "older" cats? It would probably be a good idea to do a...

Posted by srstephanie

Hi gingert,

How old are your "older" cats? It would probably be a good idea to do a full "senior" blood panel which would include checking their thyroid values (T4). A blood pressure check might also be a good idea because hypertension (high blood pressure) can also cause heart disease ... though getting an accurate blood pressure reading on cats is tricky.

I would also want to pursue what is causing your female to be "unsteady and losing her balance". That could be something else going on as well.

The only way to know what is causing the heart murmur is by doing an echocardiogram (ultrasound of the heart) ... preferably by a cardiologist (which is expensive) or at least by an experienced Internal Medicine or Feline Specialist. Some causes of a heart murmur are no problem ... but the concern is to check for hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM) which is a genetic disease that often doesn't develop until middle age or later. It causes a thickening of the left ventricle of the heart which thickens inward so that the space in the ventricle becomes small and difficult to pump the blood out. It is a progressive disease, though the rate of progression is extremely variable ... so that in some cats it never becomes a health factor, though in others it can lead to heart failure and death. Are your cats related? HCM is generally considered a genetic disease, so related cats have a higher risk if one of the parents has the gene.

I don't know that HCM is a factor with your cats. But if you want to learn more about it, I highly recommend a website that was done with the help of Dr Mark Kittleson (of UC Davis) who is THE authority on feline HCM. He retired last year but spent most of his career researching HCM. This website was written for pet owners and gives info from the top expert, explained so that non-professionals can understand. Here is the website address: http://mysite.verizon.net/jachinitz/hcm/index.html

If there is thickening of the heart that is secondary to hyperthyroidism or hypertension ... then, when those conditions are treated, the heart will usually return to normal.

Your vet will guide you on what to do and when. But it is probably a good idea to follow up on the heart murmurs ... and also the balance problem your one cat has.

Good luck,
Stephanie in MontrealView Thread

Posted bysrstephanie

7 Replies | Reply | Watch This DiscussionReport This| Share this:heart murmur in older cats Hi gingert, How old are your "older" cats? It would probably be a good idea to do a...

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Reply: Cat not eating/drinking/or using potty after decla...

Hi An_248984, Sorry to hear about your kitty. Unfortunately, I think many people get...

Posted by srstephanie

Hi An_248984,

Sorry to hear about your kitty. Unfortunately, I think many people get mislead by the term "declaw" which sounds like it is a simple removal of a nail. But in reality, it is an amputation ... the equivalent of amputating all your toes and/or fingers at the first knuckle. Plus, a cat is being asked to walk on newly amputated toes, putting weight on painful wounds.

Needless to say, it is an extremely painful procedure. I think my first question would be whether your vet has given you pain medication for your cat. If so, it might need to be increased or a different pain medication given ... and if none has been given, she likely needs some.

It is common for recently declawed cats to not want to use the litterbox ... because the grainy litter is painful to their paws. Most vets suggest using newspaper for litter for a while ... either shredding it or getting some paper litter at a pet store.

If she hasn't eaten or had anything to drink in several days ... that can be very dangerous for a cat. Cats don't handle a lack of food well and it can lead to very serious (life threatening) liver disease called hepatic lipidosis ("fatty liver" disease) particularly if she is overweight at all. Also, if she hasn't been drinking for several days, she is likely dehydrated.

I think your vet should see her so that she can evaluate her overall health, and may want to take a blood test to check liver values, etc. If your vet doesn't want to do that, you may want to get a second opinion at another vet.

She will likely recover okay from the declaw, but she has to eat and drink ... soon! She might need a feeding tube if she continues to refuse food and water. If she is on medication (antibiotics or pain medication) it may be that they are causing some tummy upset or nausea, so that she doesn't want to eat. If your vet feels that might be part of the problem, it would be another reason to change medication.

Try not to beat yourself up over this. You obviously had no idea what the surgery would involve. What is important is to learn from it and do what you can for your cat. You obviously love her and she knows that.

I hope all goes well. If she is still not eating or drinking, you need to have a vet check her. Dehydration and effects of not eating may be her greatest immediate problem ... along with some pain medication if she doesn't have some now. Good luck.

Stephanie in MontrealView Thread

Posted bysrstephanie

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Reply: Indoor Cat Only Needs Rabies Shots Yearly (?)

Hi Kristi, Sorry, I know I get wordy when trying to share info ... and wanted to just...

Posted by srstephanie

Hi Kristi,

Sorry, I know I get wordy when trying to share info ... and wanted to just add a little more info for you.

First, I need to let you know that I'm not a vet and have no credentials. But my "hobby" is listening to talks given at vet CE conferences by some of the top experts. Over the past 5 years, I've become friends with Dr Richard Ford, now emeritus at NC State (ranked the 3rd best vet school in the US) who has also become my mentor and feels I have a good grasp of vaccine issues. Dr Ford is an Infectious Disease expert and known internationally as a guru of vaccines and vaccination protocols. He is a co-author of both the official 2011 AAHA Canine Vaccination Guidelines and the AAFP Feline Vaccination Guidelines (just updated and due to be published at any time now ... he also helped write the previous version in 2006). So, all that is to say, I'm not a vet but I am trying to share info from one of the top experts on feline (and canine) vaccinations.

Dr Ford and most of the experts feels VERY strongly that cats should never receive adjuvanted vaccines (i.e. never receive killed virus/inactivated vaccines).

That said, there are also a couple specialists who disagree ... such as Dr Mike Lappin of Colorado State and Dr Gary Norsworthy, a feline specialist in Texas. They put the emphasis on the genetic component and say that if a cat has the genetic susceptibility, it can form a VAS after ANY injection ... and actually anything that causes inflammation.

While they are correct that some cats develop a sarcoma from any type of inflammation ... the fact is that adjuvants used in KV vaccines are intended to cause chronic inflammation. Cats have received injections for many years. But it was only after KV vaccines for rabies and FeLV began to be used in the mid 1980s that vets suddenly saw a major increase in the cases of VAS in cats.

Cats can also develop a Vaccine Associated Sarcoma up to 9 years after the last vaccination. So, just because a cat doesn't develop one immediately after a KV vaccine, it could do so years later.

On the other hand, VAS is still relatively rare ... with estimates of anywhere from 1 in 1,000 vaccinations to 1 in 10,000 vaccinations. But if it is your cat, that's still too many.

The AVMA formed a VAS Task Force in the 1990s. All they could do (since recombinant vaccines didn't exist at the time) was to suggest sites for vaccinations ... which were:

-- Rabies in the Right hind leg
-- FeLV in the left hind leg

Both as low on the leg as possible (below the knee).

Why? So that if a cancer develops, one can cut off their leg and try to save their life. Dr Ford's point is that is not something we should settle for. Why use an adjuvanted KV vaccine and give it where you can cut off their leg if they develop cancer? Why not use a less inflammatory vaccine (i.e. recombinant) and reduce the risk of a sarcoma?

The AVMA VAS Task Force also came up with a 1-2-3 Rule to help determine when to biopsy a lump at the vaccination site:

biopsy any lump that is ...
1. still growing after 1 month
2. more than 2 cm in size
3. still exists after 3 months

So, this is the choice every pet owner has to make ... and should discuss with their vet. I also have a cat that HATES going to the vet. But I also choose to use an annual vaccine that is not adjuanted (the recombinant rabies) rather than a 3-yr vaccine that is adjuvanted.

As for the other core vaccines (herpes, calici, panleukopenia) all modified live vaccines for them are good for AT LEAST 3 years and likely longer. After the first adult booster, the panleukopenia portion is thought to be protective FOR LIFE (though they still recommend boosters every 3 years).

Most of the non-core vaccines do require annual boosters (e.g. chlamydophila, bordetella, FIV, FeLV). Use of them depends on risk of exposure that your vet can discuss with you.

Hope this gives you (or others) something to think about and discuss with your vet.

Stephanie in MontrealView Thread

Posted bysrstephanie

4 Replies | Reply | Watch This DiscussionReport This| Share this:Indoor Cat Only Needs Rabies Shots Yearly (?) Hi Kristi, Sorry, I know I get wordy when trying to share info ... and wanted to just...

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Reply: Indoor Cat Only Needs Rabies Shots Yearly (?)

Hi Kristi, Unfortunately, the choice of rabies vaccine for cats isn't that easy ... at...

Posted by srstephanie

Hi Kristi,

Unfortunately, the choice of rabies vaccine for cats isn't that easy ... at least for now.

For cats there are two types of rabies vaccines:
1. Killed Virus (also called "inactivated")
2. Recombinant

The problem that comes up with feline vaccines is that some cats develop a very aggressive type of cancer at the vaccination site ... called a fibrosarcoma. They have been called more specifically "Vaccine Associated Sarcomas" (VAS) but the experts seem to be changing the terminology to "Feline Injection Site Sarcoma" (FISS) since they "can" develop after other types of injections as well.

Research has shown that the problem revolves around how the cat's immune system responds to chronic inflammation. What happens is that a mutation occurs to the "p53 gene". The p53 gene is a tumor suppressor gene. When it mutates, it allows tumor growth, i.e. a fibrosarcoma (and occasionally other types of cancer).

The two elements required for a VAS/FISS to develop are:
1. inflammation (particularly chronic inflammation)
2. a genetic predisposition that results in a mutation to the p53 gene in the inflammation

How does this effect vaccination choice?

Killed Virus (inactivated) vaccines are made using a dead virus (e.g. dead rabies). But the immune system knows that something dead is not a threat. So, in order to get the immune system to respond, they MUST use a chemical additive, often aluminum, called an "adjuvant". The whole purpose of an adjuvant is to hold the vaccine at the vaccination site and create INFLAMMATION ... and studies have shown that it is a chronic inflammation that can last months (and likely years).

The other option for rabies vaccines for cats (not for dogs) is the recombinant rabies vaccine (designated as "rRabies"). A recombinant vaccine is made by taking ONLY the small piece of DNA (not the entire virus ... so rabies is not present in the vaccine) that is needed to produce a protein that triggers the immune system to develop antibodies that will protect the cat from rabies. Injecting just that piece of DNA won't work ... so the DNA is inserted (i.e. "recombined" ... hence "recombinant" vaccines) with a carrier virus (known as a "vector"). For the feline rRabies vaccine, the small piece of rabies DNA is inserted into the Canarypox vaccine (vector). Canarypox is a bird virus and cannot reproduce in mammals, so there is no danger of giving a cat "canarypox" disease. But when it tries to replicate, the canarypox breaks apart and delivers that piece of rabies DNA which produces immunity to rabies. It is a very good vaccine that gives very good protection.

What is important, is that the recombinant rabies vaccine does NOT contain any adjuvant and produces very little inflammation that only lasts a couple days.

A recently published statistical study by Dr Phil Kass of UC Davis (who is highly respected) concluded that cats given a recombinant vaccine have a significantly lesser risk of developing a VAS than cats given a Killed Virus rabies vaccine.

Okay, back to the issue of using a 3 year rabies vaccine. ALL licensed 3-year rabies vaccines are ADJUVANTED Killed Virus vaccines ... which increase the risk of a VAS.

The recombinant rabies vaccine is only licensed for 1 year (must be boostered annually) but has NO ADJUVANT and reduces the risk of a VAS.

So here is the dilemma ... vaccinate only every 3 years but use an adjuvanted KV vaccine that increases the risk of an aggressive and lethal cancer.

Or, use a recombinant vaccine that must be boostered every year, but reduces the risk of cancer.

Every vet school in the US and the majority of vaccine experts choose to use only non-adjuvanted vaccines (i.e. they only use the rRabies).

The frustrating thing is that there is a new study in Europe by Merial (which makes the only rRabies vaccine) that shows it protects for at least 3 years ... but it is only licensed in the US for 1 year. Thus the dilemma.

Hope that helps,
Stephanie in MontrealView Thread

Posted bysrstephanie

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Reply: Vasculitis in 6mo male chihuahua X chinese crusted

Hi BenjaminsMom, I'm not a vet, so can't say what the cause may be. However, what you...

Posted by srstephanie

Hi BenjaminsMom,

I'm not a vet, so can't say what the cause may be. However, what you describe sounds like a known reaction in some dogs (more commonly in small breed dogs under 25 lbs) after vaccination ... particularly with rabies vaccines (anecdotally, more often with the old Fort Dodge, now owned by Boehringer Ingelheim, RabVac-3 vaccine).

Dr Richard Ford, now emeritus at North Carolina State vet school who is an expert in infectious diseases and vaccines/vaccination protocols ... and a co-author of the 2011 AAHA Canine Vaccination Guidelines (and, a friend of mine) has a personal website on vaccinations. He has a page on "hot topics" in which he talks briefly about "single and multifocal skin lesions characterized as ischemic vasculitis" as a vaccine reaction. The one thing that doesn't sound usual is that you said it happened almost immediately after vaccination. Dr Ford comments that it usually occurs 1 to 3 months after vaccination. So, what you are seeing may be something else.

Dr Ford says that the vasculitis reaction to vaccines can occur at the injection site ... or the ear tips (which sounds like your experience), eyelids, nasal planum, tail, footpads, and occasionally the trunk.

He has a photo on his website of the necrotic vasculitis on the ear tips. You might want to take a look and see if it is similar to what your dog has. Here is a link:
http://www.dvmvac.com/HotTopic.shtml#skin

He created the page in 2008, so it is a bit dated now ... but as of then, he said that most dematologists were recommending against treating with corticosteroids (e.g. prednisone) because they might promote coagulation ... which is a problem with vasculitis. He does recommend Pentoxyphylline as your vet also prescribed. Some also prescribe an antibiotic and/or vitamin E, and, if there is a lot of pain, then an analgesic like buprenorphine.

I'm just sharing that from Dr Ford's website ... as something to discuss with your vet and dermatologist. You might ask whether or not it is needed to continue the steroids. You can also have your dermatologist consult with Dr Ford if he thinks it might be a vaccine reaction. I can give you his email address if needed. If the problem is vaccine reaction, that might suggest that it isn't a food allergy reaction.

Since this occurred so quickly after vaccination, it may not be the problem at all since Dr Ford mentions it as more of a delayed reaction (1-3 months after vaccination). On the other hand, it might be wise ... if you used the RabVac-3 ... to use a different brand at the next booster. Also, particularly with small breed dogs, it is now recommended to avoid giving too many vaccines at the same office visit. Generally, it is best to give just the core vaccines, DA2P (Distemper, Adenovirus-2, Parvovirus) and if needed by law, Rabies. If any non-core vaccines are recommended (e.g. Lyme, Lepto, Canine Influenza, Bordetella, Parainfluenza), then they should be given at another office visit with a MINIMUM of 2 WEEKS between vaccination appointments. Studies have shown that the more vaccines given at the same time, particularly to small breed dogs, increases the risk of vaccine reactions. Vaccines save many dogs from disease, but they are biological products and need to be given carefully.

Hope your dog does better soon.

Stephanie in MontrealView Thread

Posted bysrstephanie

3 Replies | Reply | Watch This DiscussionReport This| Share this:Vasculitis in 6mo male chihuahua X chinese crusted Hi BenjaminsMom, I'm not a vet, so can't say what the cause may be. However, what you...

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